Curse

upier · Mar 15, 2008, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

What if the monk dies? Then what are you going to do? Next arguement comes everyone should bring a rez of some sort. <grin> It's all about how one wants to organize their team. You can put all the pressure on the monks and if the monks die then it's all their fault. I prefer everyone to have a self heal in case of emergencies since they do happen yah know. <grin> Rezes too.

See you people that depend totally on monks have no plan B. You're all about dps powergamer and forget "strategy & tactics". I always have someone bring rebirth an is the dedicated run away and rez us if things go bad player. In PVE only areas it's not so important, but, when you get to MISSIONS where it's a win or lose all situation it's important to have backup and plan B's. Just ask any military afficionardo and they will tell you they always orgainze for backup and plan B's.<grin>

If the monk dies - that means that the people without the self heal weren't doing their job.
And considering that they couldn't do their job WITH the monk alive - I doubt they will be able to do it with a self heal only ...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with helping the monks out. BUT bringing something like Protective Spirit or Aegis if you can dump a few points into prot or maybe stuff like Throw Dirt, Wards are much better help then that 80hp self-heal.

Self-heals are one step to late.

But you are right - it's a personal choice on how one wants to play it. And luckily most of PvE leaves room for error (which "different" approaches pretty much are).

Edit:
Ohh screw dumping points into Inspiration!
FC 16 here I come! Avarre watch out!

Sorry upier, but I beat you again.

Buddhaofwar · Mar 15, 2008, 10:32 AM // 10:32

well, although it is normal mode, it is still an 'elite' area. set your difficulty expectations higher, and try again. its not a breeze level unless you're running ursan

oh, and by breeze, i dont mean the spell, i meant like 'breeze thru it'

Lord Sojar · Mar 15, 2008, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That's highly questionable.
It would be an entirely different game without it - and in the case of PvE - I am not so sure that would be bad. Because frankly - I can not imagine what is worse then this or Molotovs greeting (aka one-shot-kills).

No, the game wouldn't exist in it's current form. The high level PvP we know wouldn't exist. Hardmode wouldn't exist (albeit in its current form) Hmm, I feel like writing a thread on the fundamentals of Guild Wars, and PvP exclusivity, as well as how skill functionality in Guild Wars shuts out so many players.

The skills I listed as game breaking and game making skills. Period. They are the heart and soul of Guild Wars 1, and hopefully in Guild Wars 2, they are gone.

fenix · Mar 15, 2008, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Oldie but a goodie; You are doing it wrong.

Seriously. Just bring 2 Savannah Heat heroes, Tahlkora with Word of Heal + Prot Spirit, then Monk hench, fire hench, earth hench, and some other hench. You'll win everything. If you're having problems with mobs, STAND BACK AND PULL THEM.

There is no way that RoT is that hard, it takes like, an hour to beat the entire thing. In Hard Mode.

arcanemacabre · Mar 15, 2008, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

What if the monk dies? Then what are you going to do? Next arguement comes everyone should bring a rez of some sort.

Of course everyone should bring a res. I'm guessing you're talking about a PuG scenario, in which case, it might be a good idea to have a self heal, since depending on PuG monks is probably bad to begin with. What we're talking about, however, is organized teams. Everyone, or at least most of the team, should have a res, but healing/prot is entirely left up to those in the team that are built for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

See you people that depend totally on monks have no plan B.

Res's are the only plan B you need, and they're plenty good enough. If not, you either really screwed something up, or your team isn't well designed - in which case, you should probably start over and re-think your builds. If you really screwed up: res at a shrine or restart the mission, dust yourselves off, and try again.

Other than RA (maybe TA), AB, FA/JQ, and soloing, there is no reason for self heals, period.

EDIT: Argh! Beat to it again! And by the same two people! (starts to feel like the 3rd wheel)

upier · Mar 15, 2008, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

No, the game wouldn't exist in it's current form. The high level PvP we know wouldn't exist. Hardmode wouldn't exist (albeit in its current form) Hmm, I feel like writing a thread on the fundamentals of Guild Wars, and PvP exclusivity, as well as how skill functionality in Guild Wars shuts out so many players.

The skills I listed as game breaking and game making skills. Period. They are the heart and soul of Guild Wars 1, and hopefully in Guild Wars 2, they are gone.

Ahh I misunderstood.
I thought you were pro-PS.
Then we agree on it.

kobey · Mar 15, 2008, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

What if the monk dies? Then what are you going to do?

Deathpact Signet / Rez Signet (you still have another healer)

If both healer dies, change your build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

I prefer everyone to have a self heal in case of emergencies since they do happen yah know.

Nothing wrong against that, but that isn't going to do much. I rather bring something more useful to kill things. Dead stuffs can't kill you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

See you people that depend totally on monks have no plan B. You're all about dps powergamer and forget "strategy & tactics". I always have someone bring rebirth an is the dedicated run away and rez us if things go bad player. In PVE only areas it's not so important, but, when you get to MISSIONS where it's a win or lose all situation it's important to have backup and plan B's. Just ask any military afficionardo and they will tell you they always orgainze for backup and plan B's.<grin>

If you die in a mission, just RESTART AND PLAY AGAIN. Its not a big deal. Unless you take an hour and a half going through the mission and you don't want to restart. But if thats the case, you should bring something more useful than Rebirth (on a hero).

Lord Sojar · Mar 15, 2008, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Ahh I misunderstood.
I thought you were pro-PS.
Then we agree on it.

No, I am against twitch skills in general. I am Pro-PS in the sense that I use it and love it, but that is simply because there isn't another skill on par with it to compete against the massive damage skills available in this game. PS is broken beyond all reason. As is spirit bond, but not nearly as much.

Diversion is one of the most broken skills in the game, that and shock.

But RoF takes the cake on being the most broken skill in Guild Wars history.

TempusReborn · Mar 15, 2008, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Sorry, Since when is it that the CASUAL players are the bread and butter of the gaming industry???

Ahem, Hardcore Players must be the revenue source that they really care about.

AoB...Oh Dear

Ju-On · Mar 15, 2008, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Sorry to Sorvio. Yes you where right. Tweaked my build and its a bit better. Can handle one mob at a time, but if one of my henchies accidently aggroes anything else my whole group gets snotted badly. Also if I mess up and let one spawn another then its a similar thing with at least one or two of the group dying. All my hero builds I have gotten from Wiki.

So is it normal to crawl through RoT? I'm in Jalhai (I think thats the name, the first one anyway). And I literally flag a clear spot and sit for 2-3 minutes to watch all the groups to work out their movement pattern, then go at it one mob at a time. I have the whole group constantly flagged, because if I don't, usually one of the henchies will aggro another group, or one of my ranged will be chased into another group and aggro then. And as I said, I can deal with one group ok but anymore and I'm toast.

Should I forget about doing 'the Missing Patrol' quest, because it is almost impossible for me to take out the third wave?

"Ahem, Hardcore Players must be the revenue source that they really care about"

Go take a break from your hardcore gaming and look at the statistics. Causal player base out numbers the hardcore 4-1.

Avarre · Mar 15, 2008, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

No, I am against twitch skills in general. I am Pro-PS in the sense that I use it and love it, but that is simply because there isn't another skill on par with it to compete against the massive damage skills available in this game. PS is broken beyond all reason. As is spirit bond, but not nearly as much.

Diversion is one of the most broken skills in the game, that and shock.

But RoF takes the cake on being the most broken skill in Guild Wars history.

RoF, Diversion, Dshot, Bull's Strike. Mighty skills that get better as the player gets better. As do PS and SB.

I'd rather have skills that were amazing when used right than skills that were just ridiculously powerful and one-dimensional.

upier · Mar 15, 2008, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

No, I am against twitch skills in general. I am Pro-PS in the sense that I use it and love it, but that is simply because there isn't another skill on par with it to compete against the massive damage skills available in this game. PS is broken beyond all reason.

Aye - if they refuse to fix it - abuse what is broken!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

RoF, Diversion, Dshot, Bull's Strike. Mighty skills that get better as the player gets better. As do PS and SB.

I'd rather have skills that were amazing when used right than skills that were just ridiculously powerful and one-dimensional.

In PvP.
And PS single-handedly destroyed PvE. Well the concept behind it.

Lord Sojar · Mar 15, 2008, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

RoF, Diversion, Dshot, Bull's Strike. Mighty skills that get better as the player gets better. As do PS and SB.

I'd rather have skills that were amazing when used right than skills that were just ridiculously powerful and one-dimensional.

Prot spirit is fairly one dimensional. Granted, you can have skill casting it at specific times, but it's effect is 1D. Diversion is the same thing. RoF, lol... use on person, person lives. 1D.

Guild Wars is built on twitch skills, which pushes new players away from PvP because they are freaked out by them. Not only that, but some skills just outclass the others by such huge margins, they are what form the game's most basic and fundamental meta.

RoF is the best example. What (good) prot monk doesn't bring RoF? None...

Diversion. What (good) mesmer in GvG doesn't bring diversion? (provided they are specced in Dom)

Frenzy. What (GOOD) warrior doesn't bring this (other then some hammer warriors)

Bull's Strike. What (GOOD) warrior doesn't bring this? (it should be in ALL warrior builds, period)

Dshot. What bow ranger doesn't bring this? even bad rangers bring it.

PS/SB. Almost exclusively found on every good monks bar. Typically paired together for, arguably, the most game breaking combination known ever to exist in guild wars.

Cacheelma · Mar 15, 2008, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ju-On

So is it normal to crawl through RoT? I'm in Jalhai (I think thats the name, the first one anyway). And I literally flag a clear spot and sit for 2-3 minutes to watch all the groups to work out their movement pattern, then go at it one mob at a time. I have the whole group constantly flagged, because if I don't, usually one of the henchies will aggro another group, or one of my ranged will be chased into another group and aggro then. And as I said, I can deal with one group ok but anymore and I'm toast.

...you claimed to be a casual player but somehow you try to FIGHT through Nightfallen Jahai!?

Don't.

I just run from one rez point to the next, using hench and heroes as baits. Make your way to the mission outpost. Done. If you're a pro (which I'm not), you can fight your way through, but then you have no right to complain.

I did the same thing in other areas of RoT. It depends on what you're trying to do, really. If you want to beat the game you don't need to fight your way through the explorable areas (which, of course it would be slow. What kind of game lets bad players breeze through the end-of-game areas anyway? Bad games or games with cheat codes perhaps?).

fenix · Mar 15, 2008, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Prot spirit is fairly one dimensional. Granted, you can have skill casting it at specific times, but it's effect is 1D. Diversion is the same thing. RoF, lol... use on person, person lives. 1D.

Guild Wars is built on twitch skills, which pushes new players away from PvP because they are freaked out by them. Not only that, but some skills just outclass the others by such huge margins, they are what form the game's most basic and fundamental meta.

RoF is the best example. What (good) prot monk doesn't bring RoF? None...

Diversion. What (good) mesmer in GvG doesn't bring diversion? (provided they are specced in Dom)

Frenzy. What (GOOD) warrior doesn't bring this (other then some hammer warriors)

Bull's Strike. What (GOOD) warrior doesn't bring this? (it should be in ALL warrior builds, period)

Dshot. What bow ranger doesn't bring this? even bad rangers bring it.

PS/SB. Almost exclusively found on every good monks bar. Typically paired together for, arguably, the most game breaking combination known ever to exist in guild wars.

All very good points. But from my experience, giving a hero Spirit Bond can be a bad idea, as they'll spam it too much, and end up with no energy. I much prefer 2 copies of Prot Spirit if I have 2 monk heroes in the party, just so that they dont have to spend as much energy on PS, but it gets twice as much party cover.

Avarre · Mar 15, 2008, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Prot spirit is fairly one dimensional. Granted, you can have skill casting it at specific times, but it's effect is 1D. Diversion is the same thing. RoF, lol... use on person, person lives. 1D.

Guild Wars is built on twitch skills, which pushes new players away from PvP because they are freaked out by them. Not only that, but some skills just outclass the others by such huge margins, they are what form the game's most basic and fundamental meta.

RoF is the best example. What (good) prot monk doesn't bring RoF? None...

Diversion. What (good) mesmer in GvG doesn't bring diversion? (provided they are specced in Dom)

Frenzy. What (GOOD) warrior doesn't bring this (other then some hammer warriors)

Bull's Strike. What (GOOD) warrior doesn't bring this? (it should be in ALL warrior builds, period)

Dshot. What bow ranger doesn't bring this? even bad rangers bring it.

PS/SB. Almost exclusively found on every good monks bar. Typically paired together for, arguably, the most game breaking combination known ever to exist in guild wars.

All of those skills depend significantly on timing to get a larger effect. All those skills suck if you use them without timing, which is where the aspect of skill comes in.

That's beside the topic, though.

PS didn't really destroy PvE so much as make a mockery of ANet's attempts to add difficulty by making damage numbers bigger. In that sense, it has a huge effect on gameplay.

tmr819 · Mar 15, 2008, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ju-On

So is it normal to crawl through RoT? I'm in Jalhai (I think thats the name, the first one anyway). And I literally flag a clear spot and sit for 2-3 minutes to watch all the groups to work out their movement pattern, then go at it one mob at a time. I have the whole group constantly flagged, because if I don't, usually one of the henchies will aggro another group, or one of my ranged will be chased into another group and aggro then. And as I said, I can deal with one group ok but anymore and I'm toast.

Yah, I'd say it's normal. Until you get used to the mobs there and how to handle them. Lightbringer's Gaze and a decent rank in Lightbringer helps a lot.

Quote:

Should I forget about doing 'the Missing Patrol' quest, because it is almost impossible for me to take out the third wave?

As a casual and -- er -- not very good player myself (

), I found that going through the primary quest line, then doing the easier secondary quests, all the while increasing my Lightbringer rank, and then (finally!) going back and doing the harder quests, was the best way to go. Some of the RoT areas are still pretty challenging for me, but they definitely get easier with practice.

Fril Estelin · Mar 15, 2008, 11:57 AM // 11:57

I'm a casual player too and sometimes get these strange/newb experiences (did kathandrax dungeon at -60DP! ...) But I managed to get through RoT, it wasn't easy and I had to learn a few things on GWiki and GWG, but it's doable. It does require some adaptation to builds and h/h, but I wouldn't say that it needs to be made simpler. It's a challenging part of the game, even in normal mode. If it was too easy, the game would loose its challenge IMHO.

Longasc · Mar 15, 2008, 12:00 PM // 12:00

ANet needs to make GW or at least GW2 (no chance to fix GW1 anymore) HARDER from the very beginning.

People do not seem to learn anything when progressing through the game.

And then they fail hard. Can we blame them?

Not really, but we can blame them for causing this downward spiral that makes GW too simple and lacking challenge even in elite areas. How shall we ever get better, more challenging and interesting gameplay this way.

ANet needs to reduce the number of skills, and take players more by the hand in GW2. Guide them to become at least semi-decent, otherwise we will not get over this GW1 syndrome "I played with my presearing build with Mending till the Ring of Fire, and it is just too hard!" ever.

Faer · Mar 15, 2008, 12:05 PM // 12:05

If Normal Mode was hard, it would be called Hard Mode. This game is only difficult for those that choose to make it difficult on themselves. When it comes to areas at the middle/end of campaigns, you have 64 skills available for you to use. Choose which 64 skills you wish to use, and make use of them.

Repeat after me: Victory through Annihilation. Failure is not an option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

See you people that depend totally on monks have no plan B. You're all about dps powergamer and forget "strategy & tactics". I always have someone bring rebirth an is the dedicated run away and rez us if things go bad player. In PVE only areas it's not so important, but, when you get to MISSIONS where it's a win or lose all situation it's important to have backup and plan B's. Just ask any military afficionardo and they will tell you they always orgainze for backup and plan B's.<grin>

Some people strive for victory. Some people plan for failure. Clearly, you are of the latter group. But that's okay, because it doesn't really matter in PvE anyway.